Partnership for Peace

[scarface]

When the Malta Labour Party won the 1996 election, one of Dr. Sant’s electoral pledges was to revoke Malta’s membership in the PfP and in fact, the first thing Dr.Sant did when he was in government was to get Malta out of the PfP.

The government said that this membership will better Malta’s functioning in the EU’s and will not temper with Malta’s neutrality.

The Armed Forces of Malta will also benefit from this membership, as this provides an excellent opportunity for further training in various exercises such as rescue exercises, natural disasters, humanitarian missions and national crisis, added the government.

Every country who joins PfP negotiates an agreement with the NATO that is suitable for their needs hence this will not imply any military affiliations with other countries.

The PfP is a NATO project aimed at creating trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. It was created in 1994, shortly after the collapse of the former Easter bloc.



source : http://www.di-ve.com/Default.aspx?ID=72&Action=1&NewsID=50311&newscategory=35

------------------------------

din xi tfisser alikhom ?

[johnmaclane]

I think its grand.

I think its one of the biggest pissing me off thing about MLP, this neutrality garbage..

Personally id like to see malta in NATO.

[scarface]

I think its grand.

I think its one of the biggest pissing me off thing about MLP, this neutrality garbage..

Personally id like to see malta in NATO.

imma dan ma jfissirx li suldati maltin jistghu jispiccaw ez jzommu l-paci l-kosovo u jtiru b xi roadside bomb ezempju ?

[Cereal Killer]

imma dan ma jfissirx li suldati maltin jistghu jispiccaw ez jzommu l-paci l-kosovo u jtiru b xi roadside bomb ezempju ?

ezatt, ifem mux ghax pro-MLP jew hekk, pero nahseb issa li ha ninaqdu man NATO, jafu jigu mazulin xi regimenti Maltin biex jitilaw izommu il-paci.

In-nejka li ma nahsibx li jistaw izommu il-paci minajr naqa armi sure u xi armour support :S

kieku suwicidju tibatom biex "izommu il-paci"......

[johnmaclane]

imma dan ma jfissirx li suldati maltin jistghu jispiccaw ez jzommu l-paci l-kosovo u jtiru b xi roadside bomb ezempju ?

Considering the size of the military i doubt they would be called for duty.

But even in that eventuality, NATO is a joint command meaning Maltese troops would be supported appropriately with the necessary equipment.

Regarding roadside bombs.. i mean if your joining the army you kinda have to expect bullets and stuff.

[scarface]

Regarding roadside bombs.. i mean if your joining the army you kinda have to expect bullets and stuff.

tghidlix ekk ta john !! tidhol suldat for defending your country mux biex issa qannec tigi xi Iran war u jibatu l-maltin jzommu l-paci emm bla ma jkollna x naqsmu

plus li pfp hija partnership man Nato, u russia and friends hija anti-nato which means we lost our neutrality.

[johnmaclane]

tghidlix ekk ta john !! tidhol suldat for defending your country mux biex issa qannec tigi xi Iran war u jibatu l-maltin jzommu l-paci emm bla ma jkollna x naqsmu

plus li pfp hija partnership man Nato, u russia and friends hija anti-nato which means we lost our neutrality.

Russia has an observatory status in NATO.

Neutrality? were in the EU, our neutrality is long gone, were already part of the ESDP which is currently in control of NATO troops in Kosovo.

And regarding peace keeping force, wth man you think the rest of NATO members have anything to do with Afghanistan? Not directly, the point is NATO defends the western hemisphere and considering were part of the western world the last thing we should do is say "no thanks".

Issa you might say that im not part of the army, its true i dont want to get shot at so yes im not part of the army. Soldiers join an armed force knowing that combat situations (even in malta) are a possibility.

[Kevin]

im totally with john on this one!

they're meant to be soldiers afterall. =/

[Cereal Killer]

yeah soldiers are soldiers, but considering the fact that we have been ass-raped before ( Ottoman Empire, France, Nazis, Italy), I think that taking such a stance against countries who wouldn't mind blowing the shit out of us, is quite a bad idea.

And to be honest, our country would turn into a shit-hole with just 1 bomb, and all of us know that.

[Liquid]

i disagree with you hear (cereal), malta managed to keep head to the germans and the italians didnt really bomb malta they where forced to and jsut throw bombs from high whilst the luftwaffe went close to the buildings and hit strategic targets.

malta also always amanged to send those ass rapers back even if with the help of another nation they still managed.

what stance will you take? now or then you have to decide west or east, one false move from either side and war will start

[PeR0XiDe]

After all, you can't just expect to be defended and not lend a hand.

[Cereal Killer]

After all, you can't just expect to be defended and not lend a hand.

yeah i agree with you both (liquid 2), but you must also remember that we do make an easy target for bombs, especially with the advancment of technology since world war II.

but then I think we should side with the West to get some help if needed.

[Liquid]

not only malta is easy target though even america is but then at least they have some anti missile systems, but if a war happens they will install them in our country as well, they cannot afford to loose malta it is to much of a strategic value and if the east isnt stupid they wont destroy the island and make it impossible to operate on it since it is also of great importance to them

though somethings are unavoidable

[Stewwi]

yeah i agree with you both (liquid 2), but you must also remember that we do make an easy target for bombs, especially with the advancment of technology since world war II.

but then I think we should side with the West to get some help if needed.


and why would anyone want to bomb us? Were an insignificant patch of rocks in the middle of the sea.... Iggibuhom naqa bi kbar kultant

[scarface]

and why would anyone want to bomb us? Were an insignificant patch of rocks in the middle of the sea.... Iggibuhom naqa bi kbar kultant

that is if we do not take sides.

but if we do take sides we are a significant target.

[GeneralOneBall]

i think they rather bomb the whole of europe , then if they have some bombs left over they'll bomb us for the sake of it.

[johnmaclane]

that is if we do not take sides.

but if we do take sides we are a significant target.


we are not a significant target.

[Stewwi]

i think they rather bomb the whole of europe , then if they have some bombs left over they'll bomb us for the sake of it.


all u need is one missle to take out the power station. no power, no water, no food... that simple :)

To be of significance u have to be a threat to someone and we cant be a threat to anyone.. we dont have financial or military power to be a threat so why will they bother ?

[cabb.]

all u need is one missle to take out the power station. no power, no water, no food... that simple :)

To be of significance u have to be a threat to someone and we cant be a threat to anyone.. we dont have financial or military power to be a threat so why will they bother ?

u jekk jinstab iz-zejt!!!!!!!!!!!! :P

[TwANnY]

imo malta lost most of its military strategic importance with the advancements of technology since world war 2. planes can travel much farther without the need of refuelling and also missiles can be launched from thousands of miles away...

[Liquid]

imo malta lost most of its military strategic importance with the advancements of technology since world war 2. planes can travel much farther without the need of refuelling and also missiles can be launched from thousands of miles away...

that is true but traveling long distance for pilots its pretty tough they lose concentration,etc. refueling would be easier to travel from one place to another they will have to travel half the time since you do not have to go around the island perimeter and you can stop in the middle to rest or maybe drop the wounded so they can be taken care of.

you have to take a side you cannot just sit out of it, if you dont take side one of them will still make you, so better choose the side that most fits your country

PS: shooting a rocket from 12miles allows less reaction time then shooting one from 50miles so yes it can make a difference and you cannot just move an army from one place to another there are many things to account for and the most important thing is water, food and rest (excluding the money to support such a thing)

[Cereal Killer]

and why would anyone want to bomb us? Were an insignificant patch of rocks in the middle of the sea.... Iggibuhom naqa bi kbar kultant

We were, are and will always be an island with a high strategic importance in the Mediterrenean.

As I said before we were attacked by different empires in different times all for the same reason, to use us as a naval port.

[Cereal Killer]

that is true but traveling long distance for pilots its pretty tough they lose concentration,etc. refueling would be easier to travel from one place to another they will have to travel half the time since you do not have to go around the island perimeter and you can stop in the middle to rest or maybe drop the wounded so they can be taken care of.

you have to take a side you cannot just sit out of it, if you dont take side one of them will still make you, so better choose the side that most fits your country

PS: shooting a rocket from 12miles allows less reaction time then shooting one from 50miles so yes it can make a difference and you cannot just move an army from one place to another there are many things to account for and the most important thing is water, food and rest (excluding the money to support such a thing)

agreed.

yes, long distance missiles exist, but wouldn't it be better for someone to have a base located in the middle of 2 continents?

My point is that now that we joined the PFP, great nations like the U.S.A. could plan on installing anti-air missiles or make a naval/air base here. Just look at Poland & Czech Republic, and the response they got from the Russian side. Just remember we are close enough to Islamic nations, who will probably enterprit this as a threat, and believe me, Muslims aren't as diplomatic as Russians are......

[johnmaclane]

agreed.

yes, long distance missiles exist, but wouldn't it be better for someone to have a base located in the middle of 2 continents?

My point is that now that we joined the PFP, great nations like the U.S.A. could plan on installing anti-air missiles or make a naval/air base here. Just look at Poland & Czech Republic, and the response they got from the Russian side. Just remember we are close enough to Islamic nations, who will probably enterprit this as a threat, and believe me, Muslims aren't as diplomatic as Russians are......

so what? the US doesn't go about forcing people to install missile shields ta, poland takes fuck loads of money and gave consent, not only that but personally its a big thank you very much for installing the same system which protects your mainland.

We were never part of the soviet block so the Russian issue would not exist.. and tbh Muslims can go fish now since were an integral part of the EU, also consider right now in the EU there is sarkozy and merkel which are talking about the EDC and having a EU army.


malta has become redundant, distance doesnt make a difference with missiles such ICBMs and planes? NATO flies them from vicenza without issues, the only strategic asset would be the dockyard but considering that most probably it will be closed soon and that it cant repair most NATO vessels (size limits) thats also a big question mark.

After all its about time malta takes a side, and since were part of the west the only side is with NATO.

[filthy hippie]

We were, are and will always be an island with a high strategic importance in the Mediterrenean.

As I said before we were attacked by different empires in different times all for the same reason, to use us as a naval port.

theres someone stuck in the past.

[Liquid]

malta has become redundant, distance doesnt make a difference with missiles such ICBMs and planes? NATO flies them from vicenza without issues, the only strategic asset would be the dockyard but considering that most probably it will be closed soon and that it cant repair most NATO vessels (size limits) thats also a big question mark.

missiles dont win war, you can fly a missle from the north pole to the south (excluding nukes that blow the whole world) but it doesnt mean you win a war, malta happened to be in a perfect location for many military purposes not only as a naval base. it is also a cost reduction location since you dont have to go all the way back but stop at half way (and fuel is getting expensive)

also remeber that for now planes and ship are all goverened by human beings which need rest, etc. even though a few days ago america released a protoype of a robot with four legs that can balance itself etc (they pushed the thing with strength and it acted like a human being trying to keep balance and it did) i bet they will adapted to warfare soon so we will see.

[Cereal Killer]

theres someone stuck in the past.


please stfu and refrain from posting in certain topics such as these, you should look elsewhere maybe for steriods :s


back to topic: yeah John you are right about that, plus your debate on picking one side eventually works cause if we do not take a side, we'll be asking for someone to "choose" it for us.

[scarface]

so if some maltese soldiers end up in a hostage situation like the italian missionaries ended up in Iraq its ok for you here in favor of this so called partnership ?

[PeR0XiDe]

so if some maltese soldiers end up in a hostage situation like the italian missionaries ended up in Iraq its ok for you here in favor of this so called partnership ?

What the hell man? It wouldn't be ok no... But still these guys are joining the army. They owe their service to their country and the allies that are also protecting us. No one forced them to join the army, so they know what they're going in for.

You don't join the army just for medals and decorations... :S

In your opinion xinu l-iskop ta l-armata mela, just job al min ma sabx imkien iehor?? :S

[scarface]

What the hell man? It wouldn't be ok no... But still these guys are joining the army. They owe their service to their country and the allies that are also protecting us. No one forced them to join the army, so they know what they're going in for.

You don't join the army just for medals and decorations... :S

In your opinion xinu l-iskop ta l-armata mela, just job al min ma sabx imkien iehor?? :S


It's about fighting to the last drop of blood for the purpose of defending your country, and keep it secure and stable.... not to go and do peacekeeping missions and end up dying because of someone else's war

[Liquid]

In your opinion xinu l-iskop ta l-armata mela, just job al min ma sabx imkien iehor?? :S

i know people that did it for that reason but anyway back to topic

if you are attacked the allies will protect you, if they are attacked they expect the same from you, if you dont help them that means you are siding with the other side (even if you dont), the worst scenario is being the place where the battle is fought between the two countries meaining you have to defend yourself from two ex "allies"

it can happen in 2 days and it may never happen (hopefully never), but the possibility of war is always there its just a political game, there to old for "The Game Of Risk" (which is a board game for world domination sort off)

[Liquid]

It's about fighting to the last drop of blood for the purpose of defending your country, and keep it secure and stable.... not to go and do peacekeeping missions and end up dying because of someone else's war

NATO is not there to fight the war and neither peacekeeping, america is fighting the war nato memebrs that are there are only for iraqi military soldiers training.

backup for my argument: http://www.nato.int/issues/iraq-assistance/index.html

[scarface]

NATO is not there to fight the war and neither peacekeeping, america is fighting the war nato memebrs that are there are only for iraqi military soldiers training.

backup for my argument: http://www.nato.int/issues/iraq-assistance/index.html


http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1741937520080317

[Liquid]

naf u miet anke mayor taljan, imma il glieda li hemm ija differenti min dik ta l-iraq kif kont ed tghid int.

NATO ovjament ghandha hafna postijiet imma ma tistax tahseb li malta ha toqod barra min kollox xi darba jew ohra ha immissa issa jekk hux inhaba in NATO jew jekk hux ghax ha jibqaw barra xi darba kullhadd ha ilaqata

u NATO li hemm i l-kosovo mhux numbru fiss kemm trid tibat fil-fatt kollha differenti imabd jien ma nafx, imma jekk qied membru go xi haga u ghandek xolok li qazilt int taf qal xiex diehel, u jekk ma jogbokx meta jalaqlek il kuntrat ta xoghol itlaq. (ghalkemm la diehel qal suldat taf xghandek tistenna)

imbad kosovo mhux qed jigieldu gwerra imma jaghmlu peacekeeping u ma tantx ikellhom attaki anzi naqqsu hafna, da kif tista tkun ghaddej mit triq u jaqbad ittik xi hadd

imbad illum ally bilfors tridu ax xi darba kullhadd ha jigi bzonn il xi hadd

[johnmaclane]

missiles dont win war, you can fly a missle from the north pole to the south (excluding nukes that blow the whole world) but it doesnt mean you win a war, malta happened to be in a perfect location for many military purposes not only as a naval base. it is also a cost reduction location since you dont have to go all the way back but stop at half way (and fuel is getting expensive)

also remeber that for now planes and ship are all goverened by human beings which need rest, etc. even though a few days ago america released a protoype of a robot with four legs that can balance itself etc (they pushed the thing with strength and it acted like a human being trying to keep balance and it did) i bet they will adapted to warfare soon so we will see.

Your not understanding me

The role of the island fortress is dead, even for rest and refuelling purposes cuz today we have Nimitz class super carriers and Amphibious assault ships capable of carrying Division strength armies, the only kind of sortie an Nimitz cant field are strategic bombers which in any case do not fall in the same aspect.

It's about fighting to the last drop of blood for the purpose of defending your country, and keep it secure and stable.... not to go and do peacekeeping missions and end up dying because of someone else's war

The fact is its not somebody else's war!, you think its about the USA? no its about the west, our lives and what we are! We are part of the EU, so unless we start being European we will continue NATO personnel as "somebody else".

[Sgt.heckler]

yeah soldiers are soldiers, but considering the fact that we have been ass-raped before ( Ottoman Empire, France, Nazis, Italy), I think that taking such a stance against countries who wouldn't mind blowing the shit out of us, is quite a bad idea.

And to be honest, our country would turn into a shit-hole with just 1 bomb, and all of us know that.


"In the name of the USA I salute the Island of Malta, its people and its defenders, who, in the cause of freedom and justice and decency throughout the world, have rendered valorous service far above and beyond the call of duty. Under repeated fire from the skies Malta stood alone and unafraid in the centre of the sea, one tiny, bright flame in the darkness - a beacon of hope in the clearer days when which have come. Malta's bright story of human fortitude and courage will be read by posterity with wonder and gratitude through all the ages. What was done in this island maintains all the highest traditions of gallant men and women who from the beginning of time have lived and died to preserve the civilisation for all mankind.", (sgd) Franklin D. Roosevelt, 7 December 1943.[14]


if you have forgotten how tough we can be i ask you to think again .

[yancho]

wow heckler nice find!

Damn it, it really made me shiver .. such strong words to illustrate our wonderful history .. which Mr coolio described as getting "ass raped" :) Guess someone has to re-read his history books ;)

[Liquid]

Your not understanding me

The role of the island fortress is dead, even for rest and refuelling purposes cuz today we have Nimitz class super carriers and Amphibious assault ships capable of carrying Division strength armies, the only kind of sortie an Nimitz cant field are strategic bombers which in any case do not fall in the same aspect.

li fhimtek sew toqodx tinkwieta :P, malta xorta ma titlefx il-punt strategica li qeda fih fin-nofs tal mediterran, tinsiex li imbili kapaci tamel 20mile mhux worthed titlef punt bhal malta ax minflock 20 ha tamel 10, reaction time jekk jinqala xi haga ha ikun aktar fast ovjament ghax hemm inqas distanza

trid tara miz zewg nahat, jekk inkunu fidejn l-east biex jaslu fl-europa kull mu ha iddumu 1hr ax jaqsmu al sqalija u lesta, filaks ta gwerra ma ikunx jista jaghmlu hekk ax irridu jew jidhlu bil mohbi jew inkella iduru id dawra kollha

role mhemmx ghalfejn jibqa listess, jista ikunu jinbidel ovjament u jigi jaqdi il-bzonnijiet tal lum, imma bhal punt strategicu hemm ha jibqa al zmien twil

[Cereal Killer]

wow heckler nice find!

Damn it, it really made me shiver .. such strong words to illustrate our wonderful history .. which Mr coolio described as getting "ass raped" :) Guess someone has to re-read his history books ;)

No Mr. coolio does not need to re-read his history books :)

I do know about the courage Malta showed to its aggressors, and I'm proud of it. But hey, times change, in 1940 1 bomb destroyed a housing block, in 2008 1 bomb can destroy the whole of Birzebbuga ;)

[yancho]

No Mr. coolio does not need to re-read his history books :)

I do know about the courage Malta showed to its aggressors, and I'm proud of it. But hey, times change, in 1940 1 bomb destroyed a housing block, in 2008 1 bomb can destroy the whole of Birzebbuga ;)

ok that is a fair reasoning .. but remember one thing .. never shame our history because we are not up to it now in the present :) getting "ass raped" now may be a scenario, but for sure we weren't "ass raped" by the ottoman empire ;)

[Beodevil]

Maltese soldiers have respect throughout major armies in Europe. Mainly Italian and English one. Recently Maltese soldiers were sent abroad alongside some other divisions from the Italian army and had undergone some rigorous training and competitions, which the Maltese showed their potential and kicked ass through and through the exercise. It's great to hear that the Maltese are still some tough moth*******rs as they were reputed in the old days.

Still the lack of resources hinders the service they can provide abroad to the armies fighting for a cause and that is truly one big waste :(

[Liquid]

during one of the training between the italians and the maltese armed forces a captain from the italian forces said that the teamwork the maltese soldiers show is very impressive when compared to the italians to be exact he said "affiatamento "

you can watch the exercise description with small parts here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFZudMJJpM8 (the part when the italian cpt talks about the teamwork is just at the end)

PS: there is also the reason why you should never pick up an enemy weapon

[scarface]

born commandos :uberkewl:

[Sgt.heckler]

aw guys there are elements of the maltese military that are highly trained . its just we would only be able to execute guerilla warfare as its not large enough for large movements . Buy us enough time to get help form our allies . Some regiments are regularly trained with uk and italian units . Training with the brits is most probably the best training a soldier can get ,i think i can safely say without a shadow of a doubt.

[Liquid]

jaqaw min uk :P, aparti ic cajt imma vera

@scar: ma anfx xridt tghid bil born commandos jekk ux qed titnejjek jew le

[ki||fr0g]

I agree that we should rejoin PfP. What I don't understand is why Gonzi preaches unity and asks the Opposition to collaborate right after the election, and two weeks later his cabinet is already deciding things without consulting the opposition. Was the issue of rejoining PfP so important that it couldn't wait till Parliament met? I don't think so, so why the rush? My guess is they wanted to divert media and the MLP's attention from the JPO and Mistra case.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this PfP business was never mentioned by Gonzi during the election campaing or in the PN's electoral programme. Since this affects in a negative way the families of our soldiers, perhaps there should have been 1) mention of the issue before the election and 2) renewed discussion on this issue, since it has been 10 years since it was discussed.

I'm going to judge the PN and Gonzi on his actions, like he told us to. So -1 for the PN.

[scarface]

I'm going to judge the PN and Gonzi on his actions, like he told us to. So -1 for the PN.

good idea lets keep count :p

but we keep the good ones also to be fair :D

[ki||fr0g]

good idea lets keep count :p

but we keep the good ones also to be fair :D

True. I'll give them +1 for a fairly good cabinet shuffle. So they stand at 0 atm :p

[Drowen]

-1 for giving JPO the press card, and still no one (apparti malta today ax fethu halqom) mentions it. where's lou bondi? fuq break jew? mur gibu amila l-mlp e!

[ki||fr0g]

-1 for giving JPO the press card, and still no one (apparti malta today ax fethu halqom) mentions it. where's lou bondi? fuq break jew? mur gibu amila l-mlp e!

ye but that's pre election, I'm counting post election and post "unity + collaboration" speech :p

[scarface]

True. I'll give them +1 for a fairly good cabinet shuffle. So they stand at 0 atm :p

true true agreed...

alkemm John Dalli ma tantx idoqqli fil-pozizzjoni li tawh but overall it was a good shuffle.

[Drowen]

ye but that's pre election, I'm counting post election and post "unity + collaboration" speech :p

the post election still, they haven't answered/said anything about the presscard. -1 :p

[scarface]

Just to give you an idea of how neutral we still are



The PfP is a NATO project aimed at creating trust between NATO and other states in Europe and the former Soviet Union. It was created in 1994, shortly after the collapse of the former Easter bloc.


and the following article published today is about Ukraine's membership to neutral NATO


And it is not just trade that Ukrainians worry about. Recently, Russian President Vladimir Putin suggested that Russia might re-aim its missiles at its neighbour, if Ukraine were to host Nato bases on its territory.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7324283.stm




People like JohnMcClane who don't mind choosing sides are better off with PFP.

But for Christ's sake, when you read such articles how can you deny that PN has tampered with Malta's neutrality status by joining PFP ?

[Cereal Killer]

BUCHAREST, Romania -- NATO leaders are likely to approve an increase in troop deployments to Afghanistan, the head of the military alliance said Wednesday.

Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said NATO is close to having the number of troops it needs for Afghanistan, where 47,000 foreign troops take part in the NATO-led mission.

NATO's role in Afghanistan has divided the alliance amid concerns that some countries aren't sharing the same combat burdens.

"I'm optimistic that we will leave the summit ... with more troop commitments, which is necessary in Afghanistan," Scheffer told CNN from Bucharest, Romania, where the summit is being held.

He said NATO is close to have the number of troops its military advisers recommend.

"We're not entirely there yet, but I think Bucharest will show that we have made a step forward, and we are very close to having what we need as far as our force levels in Afghanistan are concerned," he said.

President George W. Bush called on NATO members Wednesday to send more troops to Afghanistan. Citing a recent recording from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden that threatens attacks on Europe, Bush said the war in Afghanistan must be won.

"If we do not defeat the terrorists in Afghanistan, we will face them on our own soil," Bush said.

Source : www.cnn.com

[yancho]

After watching bil-fatti, with Tonio Borg being interviewed, some truth has to be reported again.

MLP again is afraid that we will loose our own neutrality (This must be new : MLP afraid of something!) Is it really the case?

First of all : PN in Government just said that we will join the Partnership for Peace, on which basis will be a decision taken from the Parliament. Reason? : Simple : MLP were against it, so useless discussing if to enter or not, we know their answer. So now PN is just allowing the Opposition to discuss the terms.

Remember the PfP is absolutely a volantary service, so the Army decides itself if to enter or not, and which areas to serve / train in. Also, the Soldiers themselves volunteer to enter the C Company of the Army, and they know what they are entering.

Unless you enter the army because all the jobs available on the market have refused you, you enter the army because you love the thrill. I for one admire the courage of these people, wish I have half their ba**s. But people who enter the army because they want to do something Soldier like, want to be trained like soldiers do, want to practice what they learn, want to be a service to others.

Remember we already have Voluntary Police men working in Bosnia helping the Police force over there, so such cases of Voluntary Service Men working abroad exists already, and thank god, no one came back in body bags. Soldiers know what they are going in for, so it is a risk they are ready and willing to take. When I choose the career of a Software Developer I knew that I will have to spend hours sitting infront of a computer, when a nurse chose her career, s/he knew that sometimes she had to clean people or view some heart-challenging scenes, but it is their choice, it is our choice. Every job has its own positive and negative sides. The soldiers knew this and were ready to join in. Now others who want to take this risk a step forward, they can Voluntary join the C Company of the Army.

Why does this make the MLP camp so alert? Everything is voluntary, and it depends on the package discussed with NATO. So another message to the Redders : Please, pretty please, discuss with the Government like adults you ought to be about the best package for Malta, and stop this "No-to-everything" attitude which has been since ages ago.


extracted from my blog : http://maltesepolitics.blogspot.com/

[scarface]

Speaking to www.di-ve.com (http://www.di-ve.com) ahead of Nato’s Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council in Bucharest, Dr Gonzi said that the PfP membership unblocked Malta’s problem to attend high-level meetings between the EU and Nato.

Dr Gonzi explained that since Malta is not a member of Nato, it must form part of the PfP programme to be in a position to attend EU-Nato meetings.

“The government decided to re-enrol in the Pfp as we have no intention of join Nato”, Dr Gonzi reaffirmed.

“Moreover, Malta will never allow its troops to be sent into action”, he added.

The Prime Minister said that the government’s decision to re-join the PfP would not impinge in any way on the country’s neutrality.

Following the government’s decision, the Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi was invited by Nato’s Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer to join 26 leaders of Nato member countries and attend tomorrow’s meeting of Nato's Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council (EAPC) in Bucharest. Topping the agenda will be Malta’s application to joint the PfP programme.

During its first meeting, the cabinet agreed to reactivate its membership in the Partnership for Peace which was withdrawn in 1996.

When the Malta Labour Party won the 1996 election, one of Dr. Sant’s electoral pledges was to revoke Malta’s membership in the PfP and in fact, the first thing Dr. Sant did when he was in government was to get Malta out of the PfP.

http://www.di-ve.com/Default.aspx?ID=72&Action=1&NewsId=50536&newscategory=35



issa jekk taraw xi tfisser il-PFP fis-site taghhom jghidlek hekk



The essence of the PfP programme is a partnership formed individually between each Partner country and NATO, tailored to individual needs and jointly implemented at the level and pace chosen by each participating government.

allura dan ifisser li flok dhalna fin NATO , amilna partnership maghhom?!

[yancho]

issa jekk taraw xi tfisser il-PFP fis-site taghhom jghidlek hekk

allura dan ifisser li flok dhalna fin NATO , amilna partnership maghhom?!

Partnership for Peace - must mean something no? Kieku nghidu dhalna fin-NATO straight away

[ki||fr0g]

Nahseb ahjar nidhlu fin-NATO mal-ewwel.. n-newtralita kif qeda fil-Konstituzzjoni trid tinbidel ftit jew wisq. U di anke l-MLP qaluwha li lesta jidhlu f'diskussjonijiet jigifieri tista tibda thassar mil-blog tieghek diga Yancho :p

First of all : PN in Government just said that we will join the Partnership for Peace, on which basis will be a decision taken from the Parliament. Reason? : Simple : MLP were against it, so useless discussing if to enter or not, we know their answer. So now PN is just allowing the Opposition to discuss the terms.

Tajjeb mela might as well ma jkollna parlament xej le? Fl-istess hin fehmni kif Gonzi gej jghid bl-unita u iktar djalogu u nejk meta ovvjament bl-istess mentalita se nibqaw.. kliem sabih fatti xejn ssoltu nsomma..

Ahjar jghidilna li kellu jidhol bilfors ghax gghaluh l-US biex jiffirmaw d-double taxation agreement, u mela biex noqoghdu mmorru l-meetings tan-NATO u l-EU? Jekk mhux se nibghatu suldati u mhu se niehdu sehem bl-ebda mod mela x'immorru naghmlu l-meetings?

[Liquid]

yancho regarding c company i am not sure since that is the special forces comp[any of malta and you dont jsut enroll in there or select as a unit when you first join as far as i know, but maybe thanks to the pfp they will offer all the training necassary to be int it (hope so)

i know the afm will be entitled to have more training and access to nato defensive documents,etc or something close to that

also this morning on the radio they said that how many, where and if they send is all decided by the goverment of the country and not by the nato committe.

[scarface]

Partnership for Peace - must mean something no? Kieku nghidu dhalna fin-NATO straight away

JIen mux qed insaqsi ghad definition. Jien qed nitkellem rigward newtralita` ax Gonzi qal "The Prime Minister said that the government’s decision to re-join the PfP would not impinge in any way on the country’s neutrality."

Dan mux minnu ax il-PFP hija just a tailored membership.

[johnmaclane]

I dont know why people go apeshit over the neutrality thing, first off our dear politicians passed the law (both PN AND MLP are to blame) without indicting a referendum so that constitutional amendment may not be the real will of the people.

Also i dont know why PfP is worrying anyone, NATO is a force to be reckoned with and having co-operation with it is of importance, Also since we signed the ESDP ( European Security and Defence Policy) which implies the EU might end up with a unified military command, this is being sponsored by France, Germany and the US.

[ki||fr0g]

I dont know why people go apeshit over the neutrality thing, first off our dear politicians passed the law (both PN AND MLP are to blame) without indicting a referendum so that constitutional amendment may not be the real will of the people.

Also i dont know why PfP is worrying anyone, NATO is a force to be reckoned with and having co-operation with it is of importance, Also since we signed the ESDP ( European Security and Defence Policy) which implies the EU might end up with a unified military command, this is being sponsored by France, Germany and the US.

That's right, I'm all in for joining NATO, PfP etc. And I'm all in favour of amending the constitution regarding neutrality.

What I did not like is the way the PN handled the issue, it should have at least been discussed shortly in parliament. This attitude of "we already discussed it" (12 years ago!) and "we know MLP is against it so why bother" (may I remind PN of the 1 seat fragile majority they have, and that's why there's a parliament, to discuss things) is dangerous and arrogant.

It is obvious that they were pressured into it.

[johnmaclane]

That's right, I'm all in for joining NATO, PfP etc. And I'm all in favour of amending the constitution regarding neutrality.

What I did not like is the way the PN handled the issue, it should have at least been discussed shortly in parliament. This attitude of "we already discussed it" (12 years ago!) and "we know MLP is against it so why bother" (may I remind PN of the 1 seat fragile majority they have, and that's why there's a parliament, to discuss things) is dangerous and arrogant.

It is obvious that they were pressured into it.

Yeah maybe its time this country has a referendum on neutrality.

[filthy hippie]

from what i have read NATO is no match for Russia.

[johnmaclane]

from what i have read NATO is no match for Russia.

Were do you live ghid?

Russia hasnt spent in its military infrastructure since the 80s, even the french could beat them.

[Liquid]

i wouldnt be so sure of that, russian believe that quantity is a quality in itself and they have quite an army

[scarface]

but what John said is true. Since the fall of the Soviet Union Russia fell behind in military. However now they seem to be rushing to catch up. In fact a few weeks ago they came in Maltese seas doing military exercises

[johnmaclane]

i wouldnt be so sure of that, russian believe that quantity is a quality in itself and they have quite an army

They don't even field an aircraft carrier, their navy... nearly non-existent. In comparison great Britain fields 2 aircraft carriers and i believe 4 nuclear capable submarines.

their main tank is the T-90 of which they have too little making the 1971 T-72 the main weapon on the field and that tank was designed to beat the Patton M60, wouldn't even go as far as infantry equipment and strategic assets.

I also think you got the philosophy wrong, They base their doctrines on the use of Nuclear weapons.

just look at the defense procurement numbers to see what a farce Russia is.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/Graph_%28military_spenders%29.jpg

It is true Russia has money on its hands and could startup arming again.. would take a good 10 years though to start seeing results.

Also off topic NATO today just gave the backing for the US missile defense shield for Europe.. super awesome.

[Liquid]

how much money you spend does not mean anything, the ak-47 is VERY cheap to make and i dont think i have to tell you who came up with it?

the t54/55 which was not a great tank it is still at the top ten table of tanks (http://military.discovery.com/video/top10s.html?playerId=1214244802&titleId=1240477405)

so i guess if the russians want to real get an army we will be surprised of what they can get out with, also they mgiht be hiding there weapons you can never tell

[johnmaclane]

how much money you spend does not mean anything, the ak-47 is VERY cheap to make and i dont think i have to tell you who came up with it?

the t54/55 which was not a great tank it is still at the top ten table of tanks (http://military.discovery.com/video/top10s.html?playerId=1214244802&titleId=1240477405)

so i guess if the Russians want to real get an army we will be surprised of what they can get out with, also they might be hiding there weapons you can never tell

The Ak-47 is a good weapon but no one denies the 5.56 mm round superiority of the M16A2, just as the M1911 is still preferred but the M-9 is a better weapon.

Using the top 10 tanks of discovery is useless, it lists the tiger when everyone knows its superseded, the fact is that russia's main battle tank is equivalent to the M60 Patton which is ancient by any means.

Russia has no power projection capabilities both in base sense and naval sense and given successful deployment of systems such as the missile defense systems even russia's nuclear projection capabilities will be put into discussion.

Aegis, the Ground-Based Mid course Defense and also the airborne laser system could and most probably change alot in the Nuclear scenario.

[Liquid]

well the tiger didnt have time to prove itself since it came late in war and was put in to field with engine problems, etc. superiority in what of the 5.56?

stopping power, 7.62 has more
penetration, 7.62 has more

the only reason soldiers still prefer to use a 5.56 is for weight reason, when combining the armour and the weapon itself the extra ammo carried as 7.62 is more heavier thus soldier prefer to carry the 5.56 with some penetration modification

i didnt deny that russia it is not that advanced when compared to other forces but as i said for them quantity is a quality, and usa still uses the M1 Abrams which is the ww2 version as well and tank operators do not really like it since it is to old (and it was also deployed in iraq) and it is not adapted for urban warfare though the m1a2 abrams is a good successor

[johnmaclane]

well the tiger didnt have time to prove itself since it came late in war and was put in to field with engine problems, etc. superiority in what of the 5.56?

stopping power, 7.62 has more
penetration, 7.62 has more

the only reason soldiers still prefer to use a 5.56 is for weight reason, when combining the armour and the weapon itself the extra ammo carried as 7.62 is more heavier thus soldier prefer to carry the 5.56 with some penetration modification

i didnt deny that russia it is not that advanced when compared to other forces but as i said for them quantity is a quality, and usa still uses the M1 Abrams which is the ww2 version as well and tank operators do not really like it since it is to old (and it was also deployed in iraq) and it is not adapted for urban warfare though the m1a2 abrams is a good successor

I dont want to change it into an arms discussion however the notion that the 7.62mm munition is the best is a farce, tests done with the M14 vs the M16A1 (the one with loads of problems).

from test;

Fighting between the big-round and small- groups reached a peak in the early 1960s, when test after test showed the .223 Remington round fired from the AR15 allowed an 8-soldier unit to outgun an 11-soldier unit armed with M14s. U.S. troops were able to carry more 5.56x45mm NATO ammunition which would allow them a better advantage against a typical NVA unit armed with AK-47s. In 1964, the U.S. Army started replacing their M14s with the M16, incurring another series of complaints from the British.

the 7.62mm round as you pointed out is more powerful and has been designated for sniper use, however for the average soldier the 5.56mm NATO round gives more flexibility, higher sustainable fire and increased accuracy over the 7.62 counterpart.

Also you got the tanks wrong, the US used the M26 'Pershing' platform only and exclusively for the M48 Patton leading to the M60A3 Patton there after, the Abram was the successor to the failed MBT-70 program, comparing to the M60 the Abram is totally different, both in armament and configuration even by looking at the two tanks, totally unlike each other.

As regards the urban warfare, yes the Abram is quite weak at it.. but which MBT isn't?

The fear of russia transcribes from the good olde USSR.

[Liquid]

ragrding the abrams i was talking of modern usage and the abrams took part in the gulf and iraq war maybe i mispelled something above, also m14 was replaced by the m16 due to m14 heavy weight (excluding the ammunation this time), also they are still in use for snipers and in desert and sandy areas are more reliable then an m16, since they tend to jam far less

and as your statment says and confirms what i said, soldiers prefer the 5.56 becuase of the less weight they carry thus they can carrytwice more ammunation when compared to ak-47 counterpart, regarding accuracy it is also dictated mostly by the gun design itself

if for example you take an m4a1 or any updated version they have some accuracy problems (like all guns) sometimes, but when you upgrade the barrel system,rails, etc with an hk416, most of the defects are removed including some increase in accuracy and the stupid jams when you actually need the gun

anywhy we can continue going on like this forever since from what i understand we are saying the same thing but in a different manner XD